Bottom Two Pair
Earlier this week at the FTF table I had bottom two pair on a flop. I thought the other player, a forumer, had TPTK. After some raising and re-raising we ended up all in. I was right, but she paired her kicker on the turn. At that point I was lectured about what utter nonsense it was to play bottom two pair. I disagreed, and I still disagree as long as you think the other player(s) just has a top pair or overpair. But it bit me again tonight.
Skortch summed up my impression of the hand.
Dealt to Virge [5d 7s]
four20_82 raises to $0.65
Virge calls $0.65
jaybird904 calls $0.55
cmaggi2 calls $0.40
*** FLOP *** [7c Jh 5h]
jaybird904 bets $7.95, and is all in
cmaggi2 calls $7.
Virge: if i'm wrong on this one, i'm giong to bed :)
Virge has 15 seconds left to act
Virge raises to $24.55, and is all in
cmaggi2 calls $16.15, and is all in
Virge shows [5d 7s] Nice.
jaybird904 shows [Js Td] Very Nice.
cmaggi2 shows [Qc Qd] Also very nice..... I'm 64% or so to win at this point
Uncalled bet of $0.45 returned to Virge
*** TURN *** [7c Jh 5h] [4h]
*** RIVER *** [7c Jh 5h 4h] [4s]
Virge shows two pair, Sevens and Fives
cmaggi2 shows two pair, Queens and Fours
cmaggi2 wins the side pot ($30.70) with two pair, Queens and Fours
jaybird904 shows two pair, Jacks and Fours
cmaggi2 wins the main pot ($25.15) with two pair, Queens and Fours
jaybird904 is sitting out
Skortch: ouch No kiddin Skortch.
posted by Steven at 1:52 AM
4 Comments:
Yes, I've had that cited to me many times, but it's still irrelevant.
Can you tell me how it matters that you have bottom two pair if you read them for having just top pair or an overpair to the board? I've only run the math on bottom two pair versus overpair and TP from this hand. A 64% edge over two players post-flop is pretty big. If it was top two pair I don't think it'd be much bigger. The overpair still wins if the the board pairs a card you don't hold.
No non-blogger comments allowed on your blog, so I'll PM ya instead!
Once you hit bottom two pair you played it correctly.
Flopping two pair (bottom or otherwise) is a black-and-white hand, since it seldom improves. With B&W hands, you want to get your money in the middle immediately to gain the fold vig, and you did that... and got exactly what you'd want (the overpair guy calling.)
Unfortunately, the one sour apple in the two pair hand barrel - getting counterfeited when the board pairs up - hit you. That's poker; the 65% of the time that doesn't happen, you win large.
Notice how I am studiously avoiding any comment on playing 75o totally out of position in the first place...
Oh, and on the topic of the previous post about playing at the FTF table: I do OK on the FTF table, but I don't go there expecting to win any money if more than two FTFers are sitting. I treat it as a classroom in that situation, watch what is happening carefully, and maybe experiment with this-or-that a little.
The combination of a) quite a bit of talent, and b) the fact that we reveal a LOT about our playing styles and preferences in our forum posts and private tourney play, makes it seem to me that expecting to do better than slightly ahead is -EV at that table!
- Z.
(pm from zerbert posted by Virge)
I played 5 7o because I knew he had a big PP. easy fold if I miss.
OK, I understand the "easy to fold" approach - I hear it used regularly to justify playing weak starters - but there is another factor that players seem to ignore pretty consistently when making the decision whether to play weak starters:
How much money does the other guy have?
It doesn't matter how easy to get away from a hand may be if you can't win with it over the long haul, right?
Let's take alook at the math...
You believe he has a big pair, so you MUST hit two pair here to continue. You will hit two pair on the flop 2% of the time - 2.02%, actually, but why quibble? :)
You (cold-called) a raise to get into the hand @ $0.65, and the most you can win is his entire stack, $16.80, so your expected return on 75o in this hand is (2*+$16.80)-(98*$0.65) = -$30.10
I'm not saying that there can't be situational considerations that might make the math irrelevant, but in the situation described, the opponent's stack would have to be MORE THAN $31.85 every time you did it for the decision to play starters that need to hit two pair on the flop to be correct!
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